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Livingston: What did you do Spolsky: We started a consulting business and we hired a couple really smart people. We had a few clients. We did the whole $60/$250 thing, which was great, and that business then disappeared very rapidly out from under us. So we became just a real software company. Livingston: But you still kept a lot of your culture for the programmers. Spolsky: Oh yeah. That was always sort of the goal, really, in creating Fog Creek.

If you are in Boston, Austin, Raleigh-Durham, Silicon Valley, or Seattle, as a programmer you have a lot of choices of where to work. In New York, the choices are investment banks, some hospitals, advertising agencies but not technology companies. There are very, very few technology companies in New York. But New York still is the largest city in America, and there are an awful lot of programmers who are stuck in New York because their wife is going to medical school, or their family is there, or they just love the city, or they want to do improv theater and this is the best place to do it millions of reasons why a programmer might find themselves in New York. Every programmer wants to work at a product company because it is so much better than working as a slave in an investment bank. And there were none in New York. We would go to parties, and we d find geeks, and they d say, Do you know of any software product companies in New York where I can work And we would say, Gee, no. I can t really think of any. This is what programmers would talk to each other about: how can I get out of the investment bank in New York So part of our model was, Let s create a fun place for us to work, since we are stuck in New York City. Create a software company specifically in New York City. With many programmers, you are sort of peripheral to the goal of the company and you are doing a peripheral path, so that you re never a part of the company and nobody cares about you.

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Livingston: Why do big companies get it wrong Spolsky: I worked at Viacom, which is a culture of creating MTV and Comedy

Smolin: You have any ideas for another product Carlton: Yeah, I have a lot of ideas But I need to do something with this one It s just hard for me at this point I think that I ve reached my programming limit I m not a really good programmer But I m learning everything I m learning the business I do the bookkeeping, I do the shipping, I do the Internet, I do the support, and I don t have the time now to just like sit and focus Smolin: Do you see a limited product life for this product Carlton: You know, I don t I don t think it s limited because every day somebody else is getting into the business People are always going to make jewelry People are always going to wear jewelry, and people are always going to make it.

Central. It s not even about creating MTV and Comedy Central; it s about buying MTV and then buying Nickelodeon, and then merging MTV and Nickelodeon and creating a thing called MTV Networks and playing political games with that, and then maybe selling one of them off and buying CBS. In order to succeed in that environment, those are the things you have to be good at. And if you need to make some interactive websites or MTV needs a web server or whatever the thing is, then you don t even hire programmers; you hire some people who know some people who might know something about the technology. Eventually, you get somebody who thinks, Let s get some programmers in here, and they actually hire a programmer. And if they are lucky, they get a good programmer, but they will torture that programmer until that programmer wants to cry and leave. A company that is not designed to create high-tech products is very unlikely to have the culture or the DNA that it takes to create high-tech products. So if you are a high-tech person in that company, then you re basically a glorified typist in some sense. It s very unlikely that the kind of people who would be successful in an entertainment company would even understand what programmers do that makes them more than typists.

Livingston: Looking back, is there anything you would have done differently Spolsky: The biggest mistake that we consistently made is that we kept getting

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